Alex: Hello and welcome to this celebration of movie excellence in 2024. I'm Alex Zane, and in countdown to the BAFTAs, we speak to the producers behind those films nominated for best film at the EE BAFTA Film Awards 2024. This time it's The Holdovers.
[START SCENE CLIP]
Paul: Hello, Mary.
Mary: Mr. Hunham. I heard you got stuck babysitting this year. How’d you manage that?
Paul: Oh, I don’t know. I suppose I failed someone who richly deserved it.
Mary: The Osgood kid? Yeah, he was a real asshole. Rich and dumb. Popular combination around here.
[END SCENE CLIP]
Alex: In this wide ranging interview, we discuss how they got from the creative spark that started it all to the challenges faced in bringing it to the screen. And a quick warning, we will be talking about the story. This is countdown to the BAFTAs.
The Holdovers is the story of a curmudgeonly teacher, Paul Hunham, played by Paul Giamatti, who at a New England Prep school is forced to supervise the handful of boys with nowhere to go over the Christmas holidays. He winds up bonding with one student in particular, brainy troublemaker, Angus Tulley, played by newcomer Dominic Sessa, as well as the school's head cook, Mary Lamb, played by Da’Vine Joy Randolph. Cockles, prepared to be warmed.
Mark: Hello, this is Mark Johnson. I'm the producer of the Alexander Payne movie, The Holdovers.
Alex: Mark Johnson absolutely lovely to have you here to be able to talk about The Holdovers. Let me start by saying congratulations. How does it feel to have your film be recognized by the BAFTA members?
Mark: Well first of all, of course it's thrilling. Second of all, thank you very much for having me. Um, you know, we don't make films for awards, but let's not kid ourselves. We love awards. So it, it's a really an indication of how much an audience is enjoying your film. And quite frankly, I have found over the years that there's a very discerning quality to the BAFTA nomination.
So this one in particular is, uh, is very meaningful.
Alex: I’d like to take you back then, uh, to the start of, uh, how we got to this point and where we are right now talking about the success of the film. This is your second movie working with Alexander Payne. Tell me, when you were first introduced to the idea of making The Holdovers, uh, was it presented as an idea? Was it a conversation? Did you read a script?
Mark: Well, uh, Alexander Payne and I have known each other for some time, but we had not worked together, and then it turns out we both speak Spanish. And there is a South American short story that we particularly like. So we decided we would develop it together in Spanish actually to shoot one day in Argentina with, uh, an Argentine cast and crew.
And anyhow, the development process is going so well that he said to me, Alexander said to me, how would you like to produce my movie Downsizing? Which is a film immediately before The Holdovers with, uh, Matt Damon and Christoph Waltz. And, and, and Kristen Wiig, that's one of those, uh, questions I took all of 20 seconds before I answered and said, you bet.
And we had a great experience. And, uh, so we vowed to continue to work together. And, uh, he had come across this short, TV pilot had been given to him by David Hemmingson, so he started to tell me about it. He said, I kind of like it and we're developing it. And one of the things that Alexander does, one of his hallmarks, he takes a lot of time developing the script.
And so I would read various drafts. David owned it. Uh, actually, I suppose both Alexander and David owned it, and I came on board as a. As a producer and it, uh, we probably worked on it for well over a year before we started to think about going out with it and how to make it.
Alex: So this, this was a, this was a, a, an unrealized pilot for a, a, TV show series set in a boarding school. And then Alexander Payne separately has an idea that he wants to make set in this boarding school. And it was kind of serendipity that these two things came to meet at this moment.
Mark: That's exactly right. And Alexander and David spent a lot of time together, a lot of time together in Los Angeles and Alexander lives easily half of the time in Omaha, Nebraska. So David would go to Omaha and they'd work on it, you know, page by page. I can't tell you how many iterations of this script that I've read, the promising news is it continued to get better.
You know, sometimes in development you'll take big steps backwards. We never, we never quite got there.
Alex: Was it a light bulb moment? You say that you were seeing, um, regular updates to the script, regular drafts coming in. When you were presented with, what was the final draft, the draft that would go on to become most of this film, if not all of this film, was it a moment where you were like, yes, this is the one we have this, this is the final draft.
Mark: Yes, that's, that's exactly right. Uh, but, but again, it, as I say, it kept getting better. I always believed in it. But the final, the final draft, you just felt, okay, all of the loose ends are tied up. And one of the things that both Alexander and David kept working on to make it better was, uh, just refining the character of Mary, the Cook, who I think is so, so important to this story.
And, and in many ways, I called her the heart and soul of it.
Alex: I mean, it's an, an incredible character and, and in a film that is, um, full of humour.
She really brings, um, a huge amount of emotion to it. I think I read a quote from, uh, David Hemingson saying that when he wrote the character of Mary Lamb, he set out to break his own heart with the writing by bringing in his own experiences of his own childhood with his mother.
Did that come across, I imagine it did in, in the draft that you read.
Mark: Yes, absolutely. There are those magical moments that an actor will give you. There is that scene where she goes to her sister's house and is unpacking her dead son's baby clothes and putting them in the drawer. And of course it reads very well and quite eloquently, but the way.
The Da’Vine Joy Randolph handled. It was just, uh, uh, you know, jaw dropping.
Alex: I, I mean, you mentioned Da’Vine Joy, Randolph, and I wanna talk to you about, um, the casting of, of the three leads in just a moment. But just before we get to that point, I mean, obviously you're a, a hugely experienced producer and you're working with a celebrated director who you have a great relationship with in Alexander Payne.
When you're looking at this script and you're looking at the time, energy, and money that goes into making a film, do you still have to take a step back and almost put your producer head on and think, unsympathetically. Is this film gonna work? Is this the right project to embark on? Is it going to find an audience?
Mark: Well, to a certain degree you always do that, but you can't. I suspect studios and financiers will hate to hear you say this. You can't let that drive it. It has to work for you. I, you know, I, I like a lot of films, a lot of movies, and I can go see a Mission Impossible, or I can go see a very small naval gazing film from Croatia, you know, and if I like it and it, and it pleases me, and I would pay money to see that film.
I think that's enough. And, and once again, I don't think I am that unique or that bizarre that I don't represent a sizable part of the, of the audience. I, and I think once you start chasing the audience, you find yourself in trouble because then you, you, you don't really have any touchstones.
You're just guessing as opposed to, relying on yourself and saying, oh yes this moment would be impactful for me.
Alex: You've already mentioned, uh, Da’Vine Joy Randolph. Um, but let's start with Paul Giamatti because I think Alexander Payne says there is only one living actor who could have played the role of Paul Hunham. And that is Paul Giamatti, which is kind of, I imagine a lot of pressure to secure Paul Giamatti for that role.
Mark: I think the assumption was always that Paul was going to do it. I think probably before Alexander even asked Paul, uh, it was clear that as we talk about it and somebody would bring up, well, what about this actor? That, and Alexander would shut them down. It clearly had to be Paul, who Alexander thinks is the best working actor in America.
Alexander, I'm sure presented it to him as I reconstruct it now in a way that, you know, I'm writing this film and, uh, it's for you. And it wasn't a question of, I hope you can do it, or, you know, you'll be one of the people we'll be talking about. It was like, no, this is, uh, this is the film we're doing together.
Alex: Let's talk about Da’Vine Joy Randolph quite often we're used to seeing her in potentially more comedic roles, and as I said earlier, she really brings, some of the most, uh, tear-jerking scenes in this film.
Mark: Yes, Alexander had seen her in Dolemite as My Name and thought she was hilarious and a very good actress. I don't think, most of Hollywood knew how good a dramatic actress she was. And we can talk about whether or not comic actors innately are dramatic actors or not, but she, uh, she's never done anything like this before.
And so everybody's talking about what a revelation and the truth of the matter. As you look at her work, any of her work, you, you say, this is, this is a major actress
She comes up from the Yale Drama School, and I have some friends who went to school with her said that she just stood out all the, all the time. it was an interesting process watching her create Mary, because the accent she comes up with in the film is very much of her own doing, and we listened to, you know, listened to it for the first time and weren't quite sure where it came from or what it was, and yet it's.
Was quickly discovered it was so true to the character and made such, such, such sentence. She had done her own research.
[START SCENE CLIP]
Mary: I appreciate you pitching.
Paul: No, no. I should be thanking you. This is very... therapeutic.
Mary: Try it when you’re stuck serving three hundred little shits and all they do is complain, then you tell me how “therapeutic” it is.
Paul: Fair enough.
[END SCENE CLIP]
Alex: And if, Da’Vine is, uh, not enough of a, a revelation, uh, in terms of her performance in this movie. The young student who Paul befriends, uh, the character Paul Hunham befriends, Angus, Dominic Sessa. So this was quite an extensive search by you for the right young actor to inhabit this role, wasn't it?
Mark: It took a while and it's one of those, it happens more often than not, unfortunately, when you find yourself staring down the barrel of a production start and you realize you don't have a key actor and, and you tell yourself. Well, if we don't have this person, we can't start shooting. And yet everything is lined up and you're spending money as, oh, you're gonna start shooting.
And so you have to believe that you'll find him or her. Dominic was found by Susan Shopmaker, our casting director, who Alexander was working with for the first time. Susan Shopmaker saw about 600 boys for the part, and then he in turn saw about a hundred of those.
And, uh, and Dominic was, came from one of the drama departments at one, at one of the schools. Uh, and, um. We looked at his tapes early on. It was clear how good he was. The question is, can he, can he sustain it? Can he do a whole, whole motion picture? Can he, uh, with what he's doing in front of two or three people, can he do in front of 75?
Almost immediately he proved that he could.
Alex: So that's, that's, that's crazy. So. As well as it being quite a, a, a huge search in terms of number. You also had a ticking clock against you, like he was the last part of the puzzle that you needed before you could even start shooting.
Mark: That's exactly right.
Alex: Wow.
Mark: There's something about the, the mania that goes into searching for somebody and not knowing where you're going to find her or him.
That I think, uh, actually helps the, helps the process.
Alex: And did, was there, uh, I mean we're, we're all familiar with what the term chemistry read is, making sure, you know, actors can work well together. And I imagine in a film like this, it's absolutely crucial because our three leads here formed this temporary, slightly dysfunctional. Family. Did Dominic test with Divine and Paul, or was it just like, we think this kid can do it?
Uh, without wanting to sound too patronizing? The kids got it. Um, he's gonna be fine.
Mark: You know, he, I don't think, uh, if I remember correctly, he did not test with, Da’Vine. He tested with Paul a couple of times, and I have to say, Paul immediately said, oh yeah, this is the one. This, this, this kid, as you say, this kid's got it. And, uh, there work together was so good that it was hard to argue, with them.
At the same time, you know, it's, it's, it's such a leap of faith. Because he, it's not like he had a body of work to, to show us, but, um, you know, uh, our instincts were correct.
Alex: It's interesting, I was looking back across, your incredible CV of films and I did see something of a through line where you seem to enjoy making films about slightly off kilter. Families or families that are thrown together that might not be even families, the likes of Rainman through Galaxy Quest, to Logan Lucky, recently, they, they're all kind of about slightly dysfunctional families.
Mark: I. I, think, and, and, and I don't mean to be sort of self, rewarding, I think if there, if there is a theme to the work that I've done both as a. As a producer of features and in television as well. It is about family and family, not the strength and the need and the support of a family. And it's not necessarily the biological family.
It's not necessarily the family that you are born into, but the family that you make. So we look at the, The Holdovers, and you really have these three in many way orphans. You know, Angus has been left by his parents. Mary has been left in a sense by her son, and Paul was left by his parents early, early on when he was young.
So we have these three orphans and they form a, this makeshift family, and they get the kind of support that we need from a family. And, and not only do they get to understand each other, but probably as importantly. Through the others get to understand themselves.
Alex: When you're on set, I mean, as I, I mentioned some of the titles of films you've worked with, but obviously, uh,' you've produced, um, some very, very, uh, accomplished directors, Stephen Soderberg, Barry Levinson, Mike Newell, Antoine Fuqua, um, over the years. This is your second film watching Alexander Payne work.
Just talk us through what that's like watching him work, how he works as a director, his style on set, what, what qualities he has that really brought out these three central performances in your cast.
Mark: He is probably the most secure director I've ever worked with. He knows what he wants. He's not questioning, he's not, readdressing something. He arrives on the on, on the set, on the day. Knows what it is he wants, doesn't mean that he's not open to accident. Of course he is.
If, if, if the, the, light is shining through a particular window, he may say, hey, let's go over there. I know we talked about shooting here, but let's go there. It looks more interesting.
But he knows what he wants and part of it is because he's so meticulous about this script and, uh, when he talks to the actors, it's never. A dialogue. It's a, it's a moment that, you know, people have said, he says himself, I do so little with actors on the set, perhaps, but not really, because often he'll, slip into Paul Giamatti's ear, you know, and whisper into him some changes to each take. One of the most talented directors I've ever worked with is Alfonso Cuarón, who I did A Little Princess with. And Alfonso is as meticulous as, as Alexander, but there's a little bit more of a, intensity to it.
Alexander is very relaxed and, um, by the way, as hardworking as anyone I know, but, but in a different way. And he has, he also has the confidence to know when he is got it. And to also know when the day is done. He is not one of those directors who you have to pull the camera from, from his hands. After about nine, 10 hours, that, that, that's kind of it.
Alex: And you say he sometimes sort of slips into the actor's ears, like he'll give Paul a, a, a little note. Is that, um, specifically for Paul, like, if you change it like this and he wants then to get perhaps a, a spontaneous in the moment reaction from say Da’Vine or Dominic, or is he sharing it with everyone?
Is he adapting the scene for everyone or is he giving individual notes to actors to sort of elicit possibly different spontaneous responses from their co-stars?
Mark: Yes. No, he gives each actor, uh, her or his specific instruction. So, and it's really based on, he'll start to do the first take and have the actor do it the way she or he has imagined, and then Alexander will step in and say, that's really nice. But can you do this instead of looking this direction? Can you look that direction?
Can you pause for a moment here so that this actor can step whatever, whatever. And um, so I say it's a very gentle, almost non-verbal. It is verbal, but it is a very, it's not a long drawn out instruction. So Alexander will tell you that he doesn't do a lot with actors on the set. I’m not calling him a liar.
I just don't think he knows how much he does.
Alex: This film, um, and I believe intentionally so on the part of, yourself and, Alexander Payne and David Hemingson. It feels like a film that was made in the seventies, put in a, a time capsule and then just opened up this year and played to audiences for the first time. From the tone, from the, the titles at the start, from the set design, it all feels so authentically seventies.
Can you talk about exactly how you went about achieving that look and that feel and that atmosphere for this film?
Mark: Well, what you just said really, uh, gladdens me because that was one of our major, aims goals in making this film. We wanted it to feel not just like a seventies film, but as though this were indeed a seventies film and somehow had been left on a, on a shelf somewhere, and we pulled it down and said, oh my God, here's the Hal Ashbury movie nobody’s ever seen.
You know, and, and so starting at the very beginning, it's so interesting. You can tell when you're with a film-wise audience, the moment the movie starts. Because when the MPAA logo bug comes on the film, it's the old one. And by the way, it's no longer called the MPAA, it's the MPA. There'll be a chuckle and you'll realize, okay, they know that this is.
A made up introduction, you know, the, the Focus logo with its silly, uh, silly music is, uh, clearly, clearly of the seventies. And the irony, of course, is that Focus didn't exist then. And if you look at the, uh, the first copyright, uh, of the film, it's at 1971. Only when you get to the end credit, you'll get the, the actual, uh, the actual copyright. People talk about the, the dissolves, the wonderful zooms, which we don't overuse. We don't want to hammer that, but want to make it feel as though it's sort of a, you know, part and parcel.
It's, it's forming content to the film and, I think Alexander takes his time. He's not in any hurry to make a point or to get a scene over with and onto the next, as so many, so many current directors do. And so all of that works within our story. And I think the, you know, I also think our. I think our production designer and our cameraman, Robert Warren Smith and, and, uh, Eigil Bryld understood that and shot it and designed it accordingly. And so, uh, you know, there are sometimes period films and, it's hammered home to you, this is a period film, you know, you'll, uh, somebody's watching television and of course it's LBJ talking about the Vietnam War.
Well, this isn't that at all. This is a, a stupid commercial or something that doesn't have anything to do with what's topical, but yet it immediately imbues that, that sense of verisimilitude.
Alex: Rarely as I'm sure you're aware, in fact of course you're aware, does a production of a film run, run smoothly.
To talk about The Holdovers specifically, what was, if there was one, the biggest challenge that you faced in getting this film made?
Mark: Oh, and getting it made. I was gonna say, in the process of making it, it went so well that the biggest problem we had was snow. Predicting when it would snow, where we could run and catch the snow. How to, uh, rearrange the snow because I would say 85% of the snow in the film is, is real. Now, no, in getting it made. It's a smaller budgeted film. It's not with big monstrous movie stars. You know, it's not bombastic. It's a very gentle film. I. We were very deliberate of, um, putting it together, and I have to say a lot of credit goes to Alexander's agent Craig Geering from CAA and to his lawyer as well, John Deemer, who along with me were really carefully, selected the people who might finance this film and not try and turn it into something that it's not. Alexander's films in the past are very well received critically, but none of them has made a lot of money. Has had the kind of, uh, quite frankly, the kind of success that this film was having.
Alex: To talk about the film that everyone's watching, that people, um, are enjoying. That is the reason we're here today. That final cut of the film. To talk about getting to that point. Cause obviously you, you hear as a, a movie fan, you hear about how films go through a process quite often of test screenings with test audiences where scores are given and films may or may not be adapted based on these reactions.
Is that a process that you used with this film specifically?
Mark: We use it not for Alexander, for me, but quite frankly Miramax who financed it, wanted to do it. I'm always wary of those tests because, uh, so much is decided from those numbers. Even though a studio or a distributor will say no, they, uh, you know, low numbers influence their attitude towards the film and, and, uh, often some of the movies that I'm proudest of, that I've done, and have done the best, did not test particularly well.
It's a whole other game you'll have to play. Alexander warned me before we tested, we tested this film once, where we ended up testing it the second time. He said, my films never score above a particular number. And that number was pretty much an average score. And then this film came back.
We were right after the screening and we were talking to the man. Who was, uh, moderating the panel and he told us the score, which is about 25 points higher than Alexander had ever gotten. And he was, uh, he almost didn't believe it and he didn't know what to do with it. You know, it's, it is almost like, is this good or I, should I be worried? Or, uh, but it was, but it was clear that the not only, did we have a very, very good movie on our hands, but we also had one that was potentially very commercial.
Alex: There's a, there's a whole sequence that, um, we didn't really, uh, touch on, um, earlier, but, um, the road trip element,, Alexander paid, I, I think, but through his own admission, he enjoys a road trip. Many of his films feature, uh, a journey of some description, whether it's Nebraska or About Schmidt, and.
Talk me through what it was like, shooting in Boston, because I imagine you've got a fairly enclosed location with the campus and then you're moving to Boston and what was it like shooting on the ground in Boston and I believe Alex, uh, Alexander had to, um, had to improvise there. There was a whole scene with a liquor shop that had to change at the last minute.
Mark: Going into Boston, which is not a huge trip, but it turns out to be a road trip, was a difficult one. And yet we had such a good time with the, the Boston and Massachusetts film offices and they helped us. It wasn't difficult. First of all, it was very cold, so there weren't a lot of people out, so you didn't have to, you know, ask people with, with non-period clothes to get out of a, out of a shot.
But it was, um, you know, the wonderful thing about Boston, it, uh, it has great classic history to it. And so that's what we, we shot, uh, we head to in the big skyline shot. We had to erase a couple of buildings that didn't exist at the time, but by and large it was there.
And you're right, Alexander wanted a liquor store and we thought, why not look for a real, a real liquor store in Boston? And we looked around at a lot of them and we finally found the one that we shot in and the owner, said, um, he said, “You know, if you shoot here, I'd really like you to use my, my manager in the film”. And Alexander said, “Sure, well, where is he? Let me, let me, let me try it. We'll see”.
He said, “Well, he, he can't come out right now. He's in the basement and he has Covid”. And this basement must have been, I mean, I, I can't even imagine. There's, there's a ladder that goes down to a basement, a liquor store, and there was this poor man down there suffering from Covid, surrounded by bottles of, uh, gin and rum and, and, and cheap beer or whatever.
And so he went down, Alexander said, “Well, I gotta at least know what he looks like”. So he went down and took a, had a, an old Polaroid camera and took a picture of him. And, uh, Alex had said, sure, we'll give him a shot. And it is one of the funniest moments and a very true moment at the end of that liquor scene when Paul Giamatti talks about what he did to the kid who accused him of cheating and how he ran, ran him over and as he said, and he shat himself and makes the purchase.
And then we cut for the first time to this completely non-actor who says, “There you go, killer”.
[Alex laughs]
And it's a, just a great, great, great laugh, but that's a case of using a, uh, a real face and uh, being able to use him for his talent. For that, by the way, I have no idea if he's seen the, film. I hope so.
Alex: I actually did read a, a story about this. The, the, the guy's name is, uh, is a guy called Joe Howell, and he's become something of a, a, a local celebrity and has been told that it's one of the funniest lines in the film, and I think Alexander himself has told him it's, it got the biggest laugh on the night when the film screened at a festival.
And he's very, very pleased about that, is what I've heard.
Mark: Do you know what you know more than I, I, uh, I've talked to a lot of people who were, had small parts that were extras in it, who are thrilled with it, but I had not talked to him, so that's great to hear.
Alex: Well, singers were talking about, um, reactions at screenings. Talk me through the first time that you watched it with an audience who weren't involved in the film in any way. An audience who had no skin in the game for one of a, a, a better saying, um, and how you felt in that moment as a, as a movie, you've made a movie that you're very proud of is screening for people for the first time. Where's your mind at, where's your heart at in that moment?
Mark: My heart is in my throat. At that point. I'm so nervous and I'm scanning the room and sometimes in the back of the theatre and I'm looking at faces and trying to see, you know, who's going to the bathroom, who's shifting, who's laughing at what line. And uh, at some point you, you make a determination and you admit to yourself, this is going really well, or no, it's not at all.
And you wanna learn from it. But, um, the other thing that we do, Alexander does very well. We do a number of family and friend screenings. So we start them in the cutting room, we'll have 10 people come in, and then we'll do, uh, the following week, another 10 people, and then the following week, and then we'll have a, a screen, actual screening room and have 60 people and, um, and no cards, no nothing formal, just, uh, hear how they react.
The problem is, if you've been doing this for a while, there are a number of people I feel I have to invite to these early screenings, but there are a number of them I just don't trust because they, they all, they wish you well, so they'll always find, something to say. It's very hard to be honest. When somebody has worked so hard and has invited you to come see something they're clearly proud of. It's really hard to walk out and say, nah, no, that didn't work for me.
I, I had a, a, a friend, a, an actor who got an opportunity to direct his first movie, and he said, “Whatever you do. Do not tell me you like it. I don't want that. That's absolutely no bullshit. I need to know what's wrong. The only way it's going to get better, be honest with me. What? I'm not gonna listen to any compliments, just tell”.
So I said, all right, fine. I watched it. I had some thoughts. The lights came up and he ran down the aisle to me and he said, it's great right? It's great, it's great. And I realized at that point I, he had no interest in hearing. The, uh, you know, the brutal truth and I get it. I get it. You got so much on the line.
Alex: I think a, Alexander Payne has, uh, said the, the holdovers, uh, like all his films, um, it plays best watched as a communal experience. Talk me through ensuring this film got a theatrical release because, uh, it's, it's coming out here in the UK very shortly.
Mark: We insisted in terms of making a deal for, for whoever was going to, uh, finance it, that it'd have a theatrical release. We're not idiots. We understand the landscape right now, and, and we weren't asking for a 3000, uh, screen release. We weren't asking that it be in theatres for however many months.
You know, we, it, it became available shortly after we opened it. On a premium, pay-per-view, uh, situation. But we just needed to know that there were a, there was a sizable amount of the audience who's going to see it on a screen and experience that way.
Alex: It feels to me that, you know, it is a movie that is best watched. Like, I mean, a lot of movies, if I'm honest, are best watched with an audience because it is that shared experience. You know, people are laughing at The Holdovers and, and, and you join in, it's infectious.
Mark: No, it's, and it's true by the way, if you look at all the films that are getting the critical attention now, at the end of the year, there's not, not a one of them. I think that I would say, oh, no, you're okay seeing it on a, on a smaller screen. You look at Saltburn, you look at Oppenheimer, you look at Killers of The Flower Moon, our film, you really should see them on a, on a screen.
And even though. You know, our mix is not a sophisticated stereo mix. In many ways it's a mono mix to keep in, in time with the seventies. It's still, nevertheless, it's a film you should see on a screen. And more importantly, I think what I'm saying is not that it, you need to see the, the brilliance of the cinematography or hear the, uh, you know, the jet plane going past you and surround.
You need to see it with an audience, you need to see it with strangers. And that's very much what the film is about. This, this strangers affecting one another. And uh, I think that's the way to see it.
Alex: It's up to you whether you pull back the curtain on this question, but I am fascinated to know, um, how you did the eye, Paul's eye. Um, how, what's, what is that? I, I, I, I, I don't believe it was CGI, but then again, I don't know. You don't have to tell me, but I am intrigued.
Mark: I don't think I'm supposed to. I think we're playing a game where we're not, uh, we're not revealing. It's the most basic way if you just think about it. That's how it works. You know? By the way, I've had people tell me that, oh, isn't Paul Giamatti's eye like that?
[Alex laughs]
Um, no. It's, um, there's nothing very complicated or sophisticated about it.
Alex: Obviously, um. Every audience member takes something individual away from a movie.
It's up to them what they take from it. Something relates to their experience in life and they pull that from a movie. Is there something that you hope audiences are walking out of the auditorium feeling after the movie or thinking about?
Mark: I think, and it goes back to what you brought up earlier, it has to do with family and it has to do with how we connect in ways that we have no reason to connect. You know, we have nothing in common with this character or that person, and yet, we learned so much in learning so much about them.
We learn so much about ourselves. And without getting too sort of, too, prescriptive, I think, you know, we live very difficult times, certainly in the US where there is such friction. We are so far apart, we initially sold it as a Christmas movie, and it is in many ways, but I also think it's a movie about our times and about togetherness and, and yes, it ends on a bittersweet note, but I, find the film incredibly positive and, and, and hopeful.
Alex: And we are, uh, nearing the end of our time together Mark but I do have, some big but quick fire questions just to end the interview on. So my first question is, what if you remember was your favourite day on either the shoot or during the edit of The Holdovers? Was there a particular day that you consider that being the best day during your time making this movie?
Mark: Oh, gosh, there's so many of them. You know, it's just one of the beauties of being a producer if you've done your job right, actually, when they're shooting, there's not a lot to do. You know, you're. You've got everybody there and you've paid for this and you've made sure this does that. But I just love watching great actors work and I just sit back there off camera, you know, and just beaming. And looking at Alexander and making sure he's happy with what he has.
And, and I think early on I felt very relieved that Dominic was as good as we wanted him to be, because it's a great, it was a great leap of faith there. You know, we knew that he had the talent, but whether or not could he, could he work under the structure of the tight structure of all this? And part of it also was when we weren't shooting at the end of the day, we'd go to Alexander's house afterwards and all drink wine and pizza and just hang out.
And sometimes even just watch a, uh, a movie from the seventies.
Alex: That sounds lovely. I almost, uh, regretful to say, the next question is, can you remember a particularly difficult day, the day that's on the shoot or during the edit, you'd kind of like to forget you wish hadn't happened.
Mark: Well, there were days we were snowed out twice and we couldn't shoot, so we were just left in, uh, in our very sort of cheap, very minimalistic, uh, uh, motel room. Just waiting, uh, waiting for things to happen. That's just a plain production one, I think. No, you know, it's, here's the beauty of it. I know it sounds like I'm making this up, but this is just a joy to shoot from start to finish.
Alex: Okay. Uh, two more questions to go. Uh, my penultimate question is from your years of experience, what would you say is the toughest part of a producer's job?
Mark: Putting together the right elements. You know, you can develop something and it's very good and you go to a director and she or he is very good and an actor, whatever, and put them together and it doesn't work. It's the chemistry's all wrong. So the hardest part is actually somehow how being able to project, almost intuit what's right for the film.
And making sure that, even though you have somebody, who’s of great value at the box office wanting to do it and realizing nevertheless, that's the wrong decision.
I have a friend who said, what is a producer's job? Is it to get a movie made or is it get a movie made well? And it sounds like a simple question, but it, you know, part of it is, you develop things, you hire people, you know you want something made. It's important for everybody. But then the real trick, the difficult part is now how do you make it well?
How do you make it a good movie? And that's a lot harder than people might think.
Alex: And it is, uh, the final question and, uh, the final question is a kind of window into a possible future. If you do win on the night, who is the one person that you have to thank, who may or may not have been involved in the film, but without whom you wouldn't be on that stage?
Mark: Well, with, without a doubt. And, and he'll be on that stage, you know, with me, it's Alexander Payne. This film belongs to him in every possible way. He did not take a producing credit. I would've gladly welcomed him as a producer because in many ways he functioned as one. David Hemingson did a wonderful job. Paul Giamatti did a wonderful job. So did Dominic and, and, and Da’Vine and I, but Alexander was the, the conductor it, it, it sounds sort of obvious, but this is completely his film.
Alex: Mark, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure talking about the holdovers with you, and congratulations once again.
Mark: Thank you, Alex. I enjoyed it. And uh, your questions are are good ones and let's hope we do well in the UK.
Alex: Thank you
Mark: Cheers.
My thanks to Mark Johnson and of course to you for listening. Follow the podcast to explore the rest of the nominees and much more in the months to come.
Thanks to, to the producers of this series, Matt Hill and Ollie Peart at Rethink Audio. With sound design by Peregrine 'Pez' Andrews.
I'm Alex Zane, this was a BAFTA production. I'll see you again as the countdown to the EE BAFTA Film Awards 2024 continues.
