Alex: Hello and welcome to this celebration of movie excellence in 2024. I'm Alex Zane, and this is Countdown to the BAFTAs, where in this series we look back at five movies that were long listed along with the nominees for that most coveted award: Best Film at the EE BAFTA Film Awards 2024.
This time, it's Past Lives.
Pamela: It was so funny, it was almost like a chamber farce, John would be in hair and makeup, getting ready for a scene and Teo getting a fitting the ADs would be like, very careful.
Alex: In this wide ranging interview, we discuss how they got from the creative spark that started it all to the challenges they faced in bringing it to the screen. And a quick warning, we will be talking about the story. So if you haven't yet, go see the movie, come back and get listening.
This is Countdown to the BAFTAs.
[START SCENE CLIP]
Woman: Who do you think they are to each other?
Man: I think the white guy and the Asian girl are a couple, and the Asian guy is her brother.
[END SCENE CLIP]
Alex: Nora and Hae Sung, two deeply connected childhood friends are torn apart after Nora's family emigrates from South Korea. Two decades later, they are reunited in New York for one fateful week as they confront notions of destiny love and the choices that make a life through the Korean concept of inyun.
Pamela: Hi, I'm Pam Koffler. I'm one of the producers of Past Lives.
Alex: Let me begin by saying congratulations. How does it feel to have your film being recognised by the BAFTA members in this way?
Pamela: Oh, it's, it's just incredible and my partner, Christine Vachon and I say all the time, I think one, quality we share is we never get cynical. We've been doing it a very long time, and it still feels so thrilling and meaningful when people connect with a movie. And it is one of the things that has been the most rewarding about Past Lives, is the degree to which people are truly emotionally affected by it, and the variations in why they are.
And so it feels absolutely fantastic. We, we've made movies in England, we have roots internationally in our, in the filmmaking community, so it really feels very welcoming and gratifying to be recognized by BAFTA.
Alex: Pamela discovered writer director Celine Song's script by chance
Pamela: We were in the depth of the pandemic and we were all separated.
Wonderful agent at CAA, Sue Carls and I kept in touch and I said to her, please just send me the best scripts you have. And one of those scripts was Past Lives and in a vacuum, alone in my house, I read the script and just thought this is a knockout.
In the spring of 2021, it had been cast and Celine had her DP and her production designer on board, and a line producer. And A24 was ready to finance the movie and felt like you know what, let's we can we are now in that moment of the pandemic, post vaccine. When there's a way to do this, it's time to get on the runway, to physically creatively and support a first time filmmaker, get going. And we did a Zoom with Celine another lovely aspect of how the team came together is David Hinojosa, who was our third producer, he had been with Killer Films for 10 years. And it was in the pandemic that he made his decision. You know, if I don't go and start my own company, I never will. And I'm going to do this and and with our blessing and with love and support he started 2AM and we all three reunited to produce Past Lives. So.
Alex: This is incredible. Almost some of the themes that play in the movie transcend the movie and what's happening behind the scenes with you.
Pamela: It really it really felt like that. It was also you know, we all had a lot going on, because the pandemic started in March. By September, the big studios, the streamers had enough resources, and infrastructure to figure out how to finish things, that process was completely utterly impossible for independent films. It was just too expensive. The risk was too fraught. There was no way to pull that off. So when the vaccine rolled out, that's when independent films started rolling. And we rolled first. So I don't know how I got on that tangent. But yes, it really it was very wrapped up in so many ways in which we felt like this team really was the right team to support Celine in this moment.
Alex: I guess another reason why you are obviously a perfect producer for Celine, is the fact that you have a lot of experience with up and coming. directors. Now, this is Celine's first feature. She comes from a theatre background. Do you, in that moment, upon your first meeting, you said you met over Zoom, are you listening to Celine and thinking, right, this is a, this is a leap from stage to film.
Is this person saying the right things? Is this person going to be, to put it bluntly, capable of delivering this feature that they want to make?
Pamela: Yeah, that's always the question. But there were immediate signals that made us understand that, that she could, you know, it's always a leap. It's a leap with experienced directors, just the alchemy of making a film is not a predictable one. But I would say it started to, to me with the screenplay, which was so cinematic, and it had such bold structural ideas. And even in the, in the, the screen direction, there were certain decisions that she made as a writer that were extremely cinematic and deliberate. And then, just the way she talked about what she wanted from the film, and how she was engaging with her department heads. And how clear the story was, in her mind. And in her body.
It became three dimensional very, very quickly. She's collaborative, she's clear, she's good communicator, she's a very social, socially adept person. So aside from the ability to make movies, there's a basic level of, you know, who are you? What's your temperament? How will you be as the leader of 100 people? At that point, it was really just, What doesn't she know? And how do we guide her into the pragmatic and logistic process of filmmaking? And how do we help her on those days when little problem happens? And she's like, is this a really little problem? Should I let it roll off my back? Or is this a really big problem.
Alex: And just so I fully understand, so by the time yourself and your team got involved in producing this, the casting had been finalised, because I know Greta Lee has spoken about initially hearing about the film, going away, and then it coming back to her, because the age of her character Nora had changed considerably, so that was at an earlier stage by the time you came to be part of this?
Pamela: That's right. That's right. We, we were the lucky recipients of Celine’s process casting process prior to us coming on board. So it was an even, you know, it was it was just such an exciting. I mean, we've worked with John Magaro before, very aware of Greta and her work, and Teo was new to us. But clearly, just the trio of those actors. Also was a signal of Celine’s acumen and instincts.
Alex: Obviously COVID was a factor around the shoot. Did the cast have chance to meet before they embarked on actually shooting the film, or were they meeting for the first time on that first day of shooting?
Pamela: Celine very deliberately did not let John and Teo meet each other until the scene in which they met,
[START SCENE CLIP]
Hae Sung: Uh, hi, uh, nice to meet you.
John: You hungry? Hmm.
Hae Sung: Uh, or yes.
John: Pasta. Pasta. Yeah. You like pasta?
Hae Sung: Yes.
John: Okay. Okay. Let's get pasta. Pasta.
[END SCENE CLIP]
Pamela: It was so funny. It was almost like a chamber farce, John would be in hair and makeup, getting ready for a scene and Teo might have been somewhere on the set, getting a fitting, and the ADs would be like, very careful to make sure they didn't see each other. And I wonder if it might have derived from a way in which she's very aware of in the theatrical experience.
It's kind of all about that you get one shot, there it is there's the play is being performed. Because when they saw each other, that first take that was it, that was the moment and you feel it, you really do so there was even a like how’d that scene go with Teo. How was that day? You know, how'd that go?
Alex: It bled into so many of the other scenes, because I'm guessing then the, uh, the scene where Nora's brushing her teeth and her husband's like,
[START SCENE CLIP]
John: Is he attractive?
Nora: I think so. He's really masculine in this way that I think is so Korean.
John: Are you attracted to him?
Nora: I don't think so.
[END SCENE CLIP]
Alex: That scene, and he had not met Teo at that point, Johnathan.
Pamela: No. nope.
Alex: I appreciate you pulling back the curtain on this, because these, that dynamic between the three of them, obviously it's the heart of the film, but it's so, it's so fascinating to hear that story and think about watching those moments.
Pamela: Yeah. Yeah,
Alex: Before we leave the, the, the, the shooting, uh, part of the interview and, and the experience of actually making the film on the ground. Now, obviously, uh, no movie ever runs entirely smoothly during production. Was there a particularly big challenge that you faced during this?
Was there a particularly tough day on the shoot, something to overcome?
Pamela: Celine may have a different view because it was her first film. And I've made so many films. And I've had so many, like, literally catastrophic days where you're just like such big problems that you stopped shooting. We did not in my view, we did not have anything like that we had a flood in a location that happened overnight, we showed up. And Celine had to really reimagine the blocking and staging of the scene, which is really hard for a first time director. I think she would say that was a very hard day. But it was a normal problem solving of a big problem with great people who are flexible and creative and figured it out.
So it was and it was with children. It was the classroom. And the the scene where the little boys make young Nora feel alienated and lonely and alone that was meant to be in a classroom. And we had to just go a punt and do it outside, which was not small with a lot of extras. They were kids, they were on a clock. So that was a tough day. And we solved it.
But the driving scene where Teo leaves and crosses the bridge at sunrise was very hard to pull off with our schedule and with our budget and we had to really be precise, there was a precision to the scheduling. And when we had to wrap the day before when we could start the next day. It was Labour Day weekend, we had all sorts of turnaround concerns, but it was like we're going for it. And we did it. And I actually have a funny picture. Because it was sunrise this we had to capture the drive exactly as the sun was rising.
And we were a small unit. But our locations department despite the 3am call time managed to paste up on some street like lamppost, catering here. Wardrobe here, extras here. And the picture was so absurd. It's just a bunch of signs taped to a lamppost in the dark, which is nonsensical, but it's like it's this image that shows me like no matter what a film crew is asked to do, they somehow find a way to do it. Like some kid was pasting paper on a lamppost in the middle of New York City street at 3am in the morning, when really all we're doing is driving over. I love to send you the picture. It's so absurd, but it kind of warmed my heart.
Alex: Yes, please do. I need to see that picture, that really does encapsulate film crews to a T, that's, that's amazing.
In terms of watching Celine’s work, you've touched on this slightly already, but you've worked with many directors.
Was there a moment watching her when you realised not only was this, um, this director of theatre, someone coming from a theatre background, capable of making this feature, but was also something quite special?
Pamela: I don't know what other producers feel. But I really will admit to I just can never tell. I know what I'm seeing. I know, the monitor. The performances were wonderful. The design, the photography, it really had a coherence a kind of beautiful grounded realism with a with a dash of elegance and beauty, that it's not social realism. It's a constructive realism, but it feels wrapped real and grounded and elegant. I could see that in the frame. And the footage. I knew the script was unimpeachably excellent. The final chemistry of the cut, you just don't know.
So I was not. I mean, it was thrilling and exciting. And I had high level of confidence. But I wouldn't be honest, if I said, Okay, I can see this is going to be but I will say the very first time I saw the first cut. I was like, Okay, this is going to be a great film. Like we got this. It was it was a it was a cutting process that was. Great films have come out of rigorous difficult cutting processes, where you try a lot of things, and you maybe have more than one editor, you more maybe have more than one composer. A lot of work can happen in post that shapes and forms a movie, which is a valid way to get to greatness. This, I thought was great. At the first cut.
Alex: Obviously, uh, all, we hear a lot about the idea of, um. Films going through various processes to get to the finished cut, whether it's a test screening, putting it in front of a test audience, getting scorecards, and then the feedback influencing perhaps changes that may or may not be made to the film.
Is that a process that Past Lives went through as well?
Pamela: I'd say the answer to that is yes and no, we did not do a formal feedback screening. We had small friends and family screenings, Celine showed it to trusted colleagues, we did show the movie, we did have an actual formal feedback screening, really, for the purposes of marketing the movie, because those can be really useful. It tells you who's really responding to this film, and how to help the movie find its core audience based on who's loving it so much. And that then can steer the marketing and distribution team to understand like, Okay, this is how we get this movie into the hands of the people who love it, and also introduce it to people who may not know they're going to love it. So that was really useful.
And honestly, the feedback of that screening just confirmed our our sense of what the film was, how to fine tune it best to the people who are responding to it. And significant changes did not result from that screening that was really just kind of reflecting back at us what we had, and who we thought would connect with it. And our confidence that this might connect beyond just that core audience because look at the surprise, men in their 30s and 40s are loving the film. And it's not just immigrants. It's not just the Asian community. It's really sort of everybody is finding something in this film. And that tells you a lot.
Alex: That really does it. I'm so pleased you brought that up, because I wanted to talk about that, because the film has had a huge amount of success, and, you know, that's not always the case for a movie, even a film of this quality, it's not destined to find an audience the way it has done, and you mentioned the marketing there, and I touched on it at the start, the almost organic word of mouth that seems to have come along with this film.
If you could put your finger on one thing that seems to have led Past Lives to this success, what what do you think that is?
Pamela: I think the success of Past Lives is really, because the universality of the themes is, is very unique and very special. I think every single person alive has some version of leaving. As a state of being, whether it's childhood, whether it's a country, whether it's your nuclear family as you grow up, and has that sort of poignance, sadness, sense of a former self that is now reinventing and finding your way into adulthood. And that can be writ large in the immigrant experience, or it can be much more subtle and simply be you grow up, and you're not a kid, you were, you're a new person, but there's parts of you that will always be there. And there's parts of you that will be shed by virtue of time passing. And I think the movie captures that dramatically. It dramatises it in a simple, elegant, potent way, so everyone can relate to it. And that's really powerful.
Alex: This is a serious adult drama, and you'll probably know a lot more about this than me, but the, the, there is a bit of a pushback isn't there, about making films that are serious adult dramas or dramas in general, almost like, don't call it a drama because a drama might struggle to find an audience. Do you see this movie as really being an example of how that is not the case?
Pamela: Yes, I do. I think it's interesting. When A24 was releasing the film and cutting the trailer, they really leaned into the romance. That scary word drama that everyone says doesn't work? Will this work because of the romance? And that is, that's a genre too. It's a dimension of the drama that qualifies it. So yes, this is an adult drama. I think part of why it worked is the identity of the film in the conversation really circulates around love and and can be talked about as it's not a romantic comedy, but it really is a romantic drama. That said, I think that is just how it got started. I think that's the trailer was so romantic. And I think it might have even dropped on Valentine's Day or very soon after. But what it tells me is that if a film is great, and really works, and people connect with it, it will work. I think it's just getting that first push so that people start talking about it is the work.
Alex: So talk me through the moment that you first had the opportunity to watch it with an audience, , an audience who weren't involved in the film in any way, that first screening with that audience, how are you feeling in that moment as the film begins? Talk me through your experience.
Pamela: The experience of seeing the film for the first time with a real audience was was pretty extraordinary. And I would call a career highlight. It was Sundance. It was a packed house at the Eccles Theatre. We had done the sound test with Celine moments before so we were ready. And you could hear a pin drop. You just felt in the room. The people holding their breath with connection and having completely lost themselves and the crying. At the end, there's just so much crying, and sniffles and the quiet moment when it finally ended and everyone collects themselves.
It just really was. Wow. It was really one of the most extraordinary screenings I've been in. And it was a sign that what we thought this movie had was really what it was delivering to an audience.
Alex: I think, I think I remember reading about that Sundance screening, and, the film received a double standing ovation. I'm not sure I even remember, I remember reading it, and going, I don't even know what a double standing ovation is, is that when people sit down and then stand up and applaud again?
Pamela: It might be I was a little bit in a daze of the adrenaline rushing out of my body, because you know, when your movie is about to premiere, all of a sudden, you start worrying about the irrational things like wait, is it the right DCP? And oh my god, did we forget to credit? This person? You know, just anxiety starts swirling and you know, how will Celine do, is she gonna faint in the middle? Because it's so you know, you just start getting irrationally anxious, and your body's in a state of defensive crouch. And then when it's over, and it's successful, you literally are like a wet piece of pasta on the floor. We did it. I don't remember.
Alex: That last scene especially I mean many of the people I've spoken to about this film the first thing we all jumped in is that final scene, and the power that that has, before we started I was telling you about my reaction to it, what was it like? Were you anticipating that moment and waiting to see the effect it had on that audience and if what you'd felt and what the film intended actually landed with the audience in that last moment?
Pamela: You know what? I got distracted? Alex, in that question, because I was thinking about the end of the movie and how the first time I saw it, what broke me up, and I started to cry was before that moment, which was when John and Teo were in the bar. And he says, you know, you and I have inyun. And that's when I lost it. And I don't think I stopped until the end. So repeat the question, because I started to tear up thinking about that first moment, when I saw it.
Alex: That, it was, you basically answered the question without even hearing the end of the question, it was about the um, I was just interested to know what are you on tend to hooks at that point thinking, is this going to land with the audiences? Clearly it's landed with you.
Pamela: One thing that happens when you've seen the movie a lot of times, is that moment when the Uber, they're waiting for Uber, and they're standing like this in that wide shot. And one thing that Celine wrote in the script that I thought was a sign of what a filmmaker she was, is they're waiting for the Uber for two minutes. And it will take two full minutes. In the film.
It did take two full minutes, but it takes a long time. And you're waiting, and I start to feel like, Are people gonna get impatient? Like how that moment was always, I'm on alert. But the anticipation of that and the bold choice of staying in that shot and watching them stand there. And we've all been in those moments. Like, I don't want to say goodbye. I don't want this to end. What do I do? I'm feeling so many feelings, and then the car comes up. I am just very alert in that moment to how audiences are experiencing it.
Alex: I doubt the movie was shot chronologically, very few movies do. But was that end scene shot towards the end of the actual?
Pamela: Yes, it was. Our AD did a great job of really trying to allow the shooting order to synchronize with the emotional arc of the story. So that was definitely towards the end of our schedule.
Alex: Wow. It's an amazing end to the film and it's it's almost the end of our time together I'm just going to ask you a few big quickfire questions to end on and we'll start with: What was your favorite day? That you can recall from either the shoot or the edit of Past Lives. Was there one day that stuck out in particular?
Pamela: I think my favourite day of the shoot was the day when Greta and Teo met in Madison Square Park.
[FILM SOUND BITE]
It was a beautiful day. We have great weather. It's a gorgeous park. It was a pleasant day of shooting and it was a beautiful scene. It's just I remember the pleasure and being in contact with we're so lucky to do this to watch great artists do their work and be outside and watch this infrastructure. This crazy circus that we set up every day and we break down every day. It just felt like this is really a great job.
[FILM SOUND BITE]
Alex: And some of the choices that Celine makes and the performance Teo gives in that scene, you really feel for him, even before Greta turns up. The way he does his hair, the rucksack on both shoulders. He's an adult man who very much looks like the boy she left behind. He looks so childlike in that moment.
You really empathise with him.
Pamela: Yeah.
Alex: Conversely, what, in your memory, was one of the more difficult days? On the shoot or in the edit of Past Lives, was there one day that was the most challenging?
Pamela: The visa process, getting visas for the children. And for the parents, it was dicey to get them to the United States in time for quarantine and testing. And it was one of those situations where we tracked it, we did everything right, but those days of getting bureaucratic paperwork done were really, everything was unpredictable. And Taylor, the line producer, and I were looking at the calendar and looking at how this is tracking, and we're like, you know what? we have to think of the unthinkable, which is this visa process really is delayed, and we are not going to have these actors on set when we need them, and there kind of wasn't a good solution, so there were a few days of like, I can't think about that not happening because that is a real curveball.
And Celine would come in and it's like, how are we doing on the visas? And we'd say, you know what, haven't heard yet. Cheerful and, but it's going to come through. And I thought, what's going to happen if it doesn't? And it just was, there was no solution. So you just can't use too much energy. Those days were a little dark.
Like, I just was carrying in my body, like, that's a really tough one. This just has to happen. And, you know, you do what you do. You're diligent, you follow up. You push. Like, who can make phone calls? And in the nick of time, We got our visas and actors got on airplanes.
Alex: What, Pamela, do you consider the toughest part of a producer's job?
Pamela: There's two dimensions to it. I think it's the very, very, very beginning when everything's abstract. When you're starting the whole operation and building it, and you just don't know what the problems are. And you have to think very clearly, how do I build this? And how do I build it well, and how do I understand? What this is, it's amorphous and you are starting it. Then, once it's going, everyone does their job and it all moves forward. I think the hardest part for me is if you're on set and a director and an actor are not finding their way together. That's a space I find very scary.
Because that's such a foundational magic. And I'm not sure I know what to say or how to fix it. All I can do is try to understand how do I support everyone? In what might be a difficult moment, but I don't have the language to unlock the problem. That’s the first thing I look for on the day one of a set. How are the actors and the director working together? And it's almost always. A problem I don't have to worry about because it's such a, it's such a core connection. But there are days when an actor is having issues, not with the director, but just sort of with the, with the scenario we've set up, with the system. And that's such a delicate place because to me, it's just, the actors are what you see, and almost everything else is behind the scenes.
Alex: Pamela, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you about Past Lives. Congratulations once again.
Pamela: Thank you. Thanks for the conversation. It was great. My thanks to Pamela Koffler and of course to you for listening.
Alex: Follow the podcast to explore the rest of the nominees and much more in the months to come. Discover the full longlist at BAFTA.org. Thanks to to the producers of this series, Matt Hill and Ollie Piet at Rethink Audio with Sound design by Peregrine Pez Andrews. I'm Alex Zane.
This was a BAFTA production. I'll see you again as the countdown to the EE BAFTA Film Awards 2024 continues.
