Hello and welcome to this celebration of movie Excellence in 2024. I'm Alex Zane, and in countdown to the BAFTAs, we speak to the producers behind those films nominated for best film at the EE BAFTA Film Awards 2024.
Alex: This time, Anatomy of a Fall.
David Thion: One day, uh, a woman came and say, I tell my ex husband, you should see the film and you will understand, uh, why I leave you.
Alex: Ha ha!
In this wide ranging interview, we discuss how they got from the creative spark that started it all to the challenges they faced in bringing it to the screen. And a quick warning, we will be talking about the story. So if you haven't yet, go see the movie, come back and get listening.
This is Countdown to the BAFTAs.
[START SCENE CLIP]
Vincent: How many times have you been questioned?
Sandra: It's been once here by the policeman and once by the investigative judge.
Vincent: Okay. Can, can you tell me, um what you told them about the day he died?
Sandra: Yes, of course.
[END SCENE CLIP]
Alex: For the past year, Sandra, a German writer, played by Sandra Hüller, her husband Samuel, and their son Daniel, have lived a secluded life in a remote town in the French Alps.
[START SCENE CLIP]
Samuel: Daniel hears you speak a language that has nothing to do with his life just because you impose this on him just like everything else. We run your turf all the time
Sandra: Yeah, in your country
[END SCENE CLIP]
Alex: When Samuel is found dead in the snow below their chalet, the police question whether it was suicide or murder. Samuel's death is treated as suspicious, and Sandra becomes the main suspect.
Marie-Ange Luciani: Hi, I'm Marie-Ange Luciani. I'm the producer of Anatomy of a Fall.
Alex: Marie-Ange worked with Director Justine Triet and writer Arthur Harari on the film.
Marie-Ange Luciani: Justine came to see us with two different movies, but she say that I have an idea that I love. It's something with snow, with a dog, with a woman, maybe with a piano. I don't know, and maybe it's going to be a thriller. So, so we, we choose this, saying like, OK,
David Thion: My name is, uh, David Thion. I'm also the producer of The Anatomy of the Fall. It was a bit strange because it was pandemic times.
Marie-Ange Luciani: So, uh, they live together, you know, and, and they, they work a lot, a lot, and we made a lot of Zoom together, all together,
David Thion: So it was a bit strange to work like this, you know, at the very beginning. Normally, you often see the writers, you, you know, you meet, uh, you know, around the coffee and have, uh, you know, passionate and long discussions and all, you know, was on Zoom and it was a very special, uh, ambiance. But it was quite, uh, interesting and challenging. Yes.
Marie-Ange Luciani: I think this atmosphere, this pandemic, and I think Arthur and Justine together in an apartment, they start to think about couple, about how being a couple in, uh, and the, , the Heidi of the movie come at this moment, I think. Okay. Okay. For the snow. Okay. For the woman. Okay. For the blind child. But the couple start on this apartment, uh, with the pandemic
Alex: I mean, that's really interesting, because I was going to ask once the idea began to develop, was the thing that excited both Justine and you the idea of making a courtroom drama or the idea of making, uh, a film dissecting a couple's relationship?
Marie-Ange Luciani: um, the, the court drama, uh, is coming after. The first thing was, this couple. Maybe this woman and the child, the relation between a mother and a child, this is the beginning. And after, Justine is a big, big fan of court drama movie, is a big fan of Cold Case. She looks everything, she's a big fan. And after she said that maybe there is a murder at the beginning of the movie, and maybe the movie is, uh, beginning a court drama movie. So it was in two steps. First step was the couple, the relation between the child and the mother, and after a murder and the court drama.
Alex: I think your, your, uh, lead actress, uh, Sandra Hüller, uh, she also described it as, uh, a Trojan horse of a movie. Can you explain a bit more about what she means by that?
Marie-Ange Luciani: Oh, yeah, but the beginning of the project was, it's, it's for Sandra Hüller. She worked with her on Sibyl, on the precedent movie, and she was like, okay, this woman is incredible. I think this is the most important actress in this moment. I want to write for her. So, they built all the movie. around her, around her personality, her body, her voice, all around Sandra. But I think for an actress, it's a big gift to be loved like this.
David Thion: And Sandra was always asking to Justine, tell me how to play the scene. But I need to know if she's guilty or not. Uh, so this was always, you know, the, the, the question, and at the very beginning of the relationship on the set, uh, Justine says, I don't want to answer that question. You have to figure out, uh, you know, your own answer. But Sandra, says, no, for this, you know, this very scene, I really need to know. So, so Justine says, okay, for me, you are 90 percent not guilty. But there is a doubt. So the shadow of a doubt. So play it like this
Alex: This is fascinating because I think I read that obviously you have this script, but then when you're on set, the relationship between Justine and Sandra, they almost put the script to one side and start improvising, coming up with new things. How exciting or how scary is that for you as the producers watching the script just go
Marie-Ange Luciani: It was not like this too, because the script was very, very present. . Yes. But, but the way Justine is working is like this. We know her very well. We trust in her, she's very, uh, professional everybody is, is here with her to tell that her that's cool. That's not cool. Oh, that's not. And after she shoots, she, she had the final cut, but, there is improvisation, but not so much. This is the, the script is very, uh, central. Because this is a very precise script because it's about the court drama, it's very important after, because we, we, there is a kind of a reinterpretation of all we had seen before, so it must be very precise.
David Thion: There is a lot of takes, uh, you know, during, each day of shooting and sometimes she do some retakes, uh, especially for the very first scene because we had long discussions, regarding the very first scene and said, Hey, Justine, maybe you should retake that because it's not, uh, you know, um, on top. And, uh, we, we all think that we can do, you know, a better entry into the film. so, it's, it's, um, like a work in progress, you know, but, but, uh, regarding the script, the film is very, um, close to what the, the script was, except for a couple of scenes that have been deleted, uh, you know, during the editing, but it's, uh, you know, and there were not so many possibilities of changing, you know, uh, everything in the structure of the film.
Alex: Traditionally, courtroom dramas very much deal in absolutes. When you watch a courtroom drama, there is a moment where someone goes, and here is the evidence, this is the truth. Whereas your film, it's very ambiguous. How exciting is it for you as producers to be working on a film, um, or potentially scary, to be working on a film that cannot be easily categorized?
Marie-Ange Luciani: I produce movie for this thing. I produce movie in general because I think this movie it's about trust. The court drama it's it's like this thing is is beginning a fiction, a fiction about this couple.
[START SCENE CLIP]
Sandra: I have to accept that we live in your hometown. The people that you grew up with. They look down on me whenever I don't make the effort to smile at them. You don't think me living here counts as meeting you on your turf?
Samuel: You never smile at anyone.
Sandra: Yeah. That's why you love me, right?
[END SCENE CLIP]
David Thion: the funny thing is that the central scene, you know, about the fight, Arthur and Justine, each one has written, his own version, his own draft, of the scene.And the, the version of Justine was, uh, close to Sandra. Yeah, and Artie says, no, you have to, to give him a chance and so they were confronting, you know, and she did, uh, probably 10 versions, of this scene, you know,
Alex: I think that's, I'm so pleased you brought up that scene because I wanted to talk about that scene, I think it's one of the most talked about scenes in the film, because of its relatability, I think most people watch this scene and they can see aspects of themselves in this couple, in this argument.
But this scene, am I right in thinking, this scene was originally not going to be in the film. It was just going to be the recording, because the scene starts with the recording in court, and it was initially, originally, just going to be the recording.
David Thion: Yes, that's true. And, and then she decided to film, the scene. And to include it, uh, in the shooting schedule.
Marie-Ange Luciani: This is this moment between fiction. So, for me, the, the, the audio scene is a fiction, the possibility to interpret everything, to say everything, a lot of possibility, but the real thing, to see each other fighting. It's more real, I think for us. For the spectator.
David Thion: For the audience
Marie-Ange Luciani:. For the audience. It's more real. It it's beginning to be real. Yeah. And she stop, she stop the scene at the moment of maybe they’re are fighting really? So she stop. It's, it's a little bit perverse
David Thion: And it could have been a bit boring, you know, if we. we don't see them and just only hear them and, and it's, it's a way of, um, embodying Samuel and, it makes the audience more, uh, involved, you know, in the, in the scene. It's, it's funny because it is one of the scenes in France, but also abroad, uh, that is the most commented of the whole movie. Sometimes, uh, people go and see, uh, Justine, and say, hey, I have long discussion with my husband or with my wife after seeing the film. And it took us like a one hour to discuss the scenes and we were not, we were fighting, we were arguing about the scenes. And, and one day, uh, a woman came and say, I tell my ex husband, you should see the film and you will understand, uh, why I leave you.
Alex: haha! So just talk me through what it was like on set. The atmosphere and watching those performances bringing Justine's script to life of Samuel and Sandra. What was it like in the moment being there?
Marie-Ange Luciani: it was very intense because, she tried to, to find, uh, emotional state for Samuel. And it take a long time to do this. And Sandra was very in the proposition of a lot of things. She try a lot of version, very cold, very in love. Justine, do a lot of takes a lot of takes, like, 25 or 30 maybe. And,you know, just playing like 20 minutes, whole scene, 20 minute, not stop. So at the end, the actor, was very tired. And she said, OK, now we can play the scene. And, OK, so it was crazy. It was a crazy journey.
Alex: There is another performance as well as Sandra and Samuel that I really want to talk about, and that's uh, Milo Machado Graner as Daniel. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.
David Thion: Yes.
Alex: talk us through the process of finding him. Um, because I'm right in thinking you saw a lot of actors for that role. That was a big casting.
Marie-Ange Luciani: Oh, it was a very, very long process, nine months, uh, in France, in, uh, UK, in Belgium, we try to find him everywhere because at the beginning, Justine wanted a real blind child, We don't find him, and one day we received this video by Milo and all of us was like, okay, this is the guy, So Justine just met, first meeting with him, and a second meeting, and we were like, okay, it's genius. It's different. He's not a child. He's not an adult. Who is it? Is it an E.T., you know?
David Thion: He has something really, you know, strange and, uh, and he's very, uh, original, compared with all the children that we have seen before. He was really, really gifted, you know, he's really good, at school, uh, he learned how to play, uh, the piano in like a couple of months because he, he wasn't playing the piano at all, you know, when we, met him. So it was, you know, really, um, very good performance for him, uh, learning to play the piano, you know, and it was the same for the, um, uh, to play a blind child, or a visual impaired, uh, child. So it was, uh, you know, quite a challenge, uh, for him. So. He made a lot of exercise, so he was really acting, you know, in a very professional way, but with something very singular, very original.
Marie-Ange Luciani: It was crazy because with Sandra too, it was like, Can we have another take? I'm not, I'm not so good in this take. Can we, can you have again? Like a professional actor. I was like, okay, d'accord.
Alex: When you spoke to him, did you ever find out, what motivated him? Why he wanted to, uh, become an actor? What was his drive? Why he auditioned?
Marie-Ange Luciani: We find him because he was, he was in another film, a little. A little part in the movie of, uh, it a Netflix movie with Danny Boon, he played Danny Boon's son in a Netflix movie. Yeah, just a little bit. But him and his brother are together actor. They weren't together to be the actors. So it's crazy. And he's very sure about this. He continued to go to school, et cetera, but he's very sure with his desire. And it's, it's, it's crazy because it's very mature, very, uh, and it's a big cinephile too. He often go to cinema, to theater. It's, it's crazy.
David Thion: He knows a lot of things. Uh, and, and he's always asking question. He's very curious about everything. The first time we met, he was asking, you know, ah, you, you are a producer. What is a producer? Exactly. How does it work? So he wants to understand everything. You know, it's, he is really a, a bit of a nerd, you know?
Alex: And, uh, and I mean, another scene that is definitely worth mentioning is Daniel's testimony in court and watching him perform that scene in the film, that must have been quite a moment to be on set and seeing the way he delivers that.
David Thion: Yeah. Is, is very sensitive, you know, so, so, and, and it's the same, uh, process of working on set than the one described by Marie-Ange. So it was, uh, you know, a lot of, um, uh, hours of working. You know, so everyone was really tired. He was really tired, his emotion. You know, was really at a very high level. So, at a certain point, uh, Justine, uh, reaches, you know, the moment in which there is something very true, you know, in terms of emotion. and so she always, try to reach this moment. When you are not playing, you know, something, escape from you. You know, you are, you are losing the control of the, of what you are doing. So she, she's always thinking of how to reach that moment.
Marie-Ange Luciani: I think the particularity of Milo and in this scene in particular, it's that he understands everything of what he plays. Everything. I think he's very clever and he understand all the things he said. I think we can feel this, this capacity of, of understanding.
Alex: Wow, that's fascinating. So he wasn't, sometimes child actors, young actors, they're just told, you need to say these words in this scene, we don't need to explain the bigger story to you, just say this like this. But you think he was actually that engaged with the themes of the film.
Marie-Ange Luciani: Yeah, absolutely. I think he always, uh, be with the question of who is his mother, who is his father, what is the truth, always at the beginning of the shooting, he was in this state of, this, this will, this will to, to understand. And I think when we shoot this scene, it was at the end of the shooting and he was ready. He was ready to understand what he's going to do. He want, he say to us that now I had to save to save my mother. Because maybe she's, maybe she's guilty, maybe not, but I want to stay with her. I have to make a choice. And he understands this thing very well.
David Thion: And he always asks a lot of questions, you know, just to prepare himself. And, uh, and it's a, it's a kind of a strange mix of a very analytic mind. And a, a very sensitive person.
Alex: I want to talk about one of the great moments of music in cinema over the past 12 months, the instrumental version of 50 Cent's P. I. M. P. that plays at the start to dramatic effect That wasn't the original choice, was it, for, for, for that scene? I know, um, David, you mentioned at the start certain things had been cut out, and one of the things that was planned was related to the original song choice. Tell me about that.
David Thion: It was a different choice at the very beginning. Justine wanted, um, Jolene by Dolly Parton, but it was too, uh, expensive. Really. You know, it was, uh, unreachable for us. so she was really disappointed and she decided to change, you know, totally. And um, and one day she says, ah, I think I have a new idea. Uh, uh, this is this, uh, version of the 50 Cent song. But we needed to have the rights before the beginning of the shooting, because the song was playing during the shooting, so we had to secure the rights, you know, before the first day.
Marie-Ange Luciani: Yeah, I think it's a very, very good idea, because of the difference between two ambiences. Someone is going to die and this music is a contraposition. It's, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's crazy to have this high D because yes, at the end, the guys die. This music continue and the audience like what is happening between this drama and this, this music.
David Thion: Yeah. And it's, it's like a circle, you know, the, the music, uh, keeps on going, uh, and, uh, it seems to be never ending, you know, and it's obsessive and it's very loud. So, so it was quite a risk to, to, to start with a film having, I don't know, 10 minutes of this, uh, you know, music, uh, you know, we always hear that. And when the, the child, uh, comes back from the walk. The music is still playing and it's still playing very loud. So it's a bit strange, you know, so I think it's, it's really, um, an idea of, of journeys.
Marie-Ange Luciani: Yeah. 50 Cent post something on Instagram saying that okay we'll, write a shadow of now. Our song, it's a shadow of now. it's, a masterpiece now with Anatomy of a Fall.
Alex: Wait. He's put, he, he put that on Instagram. As a dog owner myself, I, I do want to, uh, mention Snoop, the dog, the, the actor that plays Snoop Messi, I believe is the original name of the, of the, the dog. And, and that dog was recognized along with your film at, uh, at the Cannes Film Festival, wasn't it?
Marie-Ange Luciani: Yeah. he won the, the Palmr Dog. but Justine say that I want a dog. She always had animals movie of Justin Triet, always. she said that, I want a dog but not a dog with a, coach.
David Thion: A company, you know, that deals with, you know, different type of animals. So it was only one person. Uh, and she has only one, uh, pet.
Marie-Ange Luciani: This is very artisanal way of working. Laura Martin with the dog. It's very, very, uh, particular. And Justine choose this artisanal way of working. And the dog is crazy. It's, it's a big actor.
David Thion: And, and now Neon the US distributor, they, they, they want hm to come to, to the United States for the, the award race for the promotion, for the promotion. So now they're thinking of how you know, the formality with customs. And so they're dealing with that now,
Alex: There is something that happens very often, um, with, uh, with Hollywood movies, for example, where they send a movie to test screenings with test audiences to, to focus group it and get feedback. And then quite often they alter the film based on that process, is that something that you do? Was that done with Anatomy of a Fall?
Marie-Ange Luciani: no, we, no, some, some friend of Justine, uh, some filmmaker or, or screenwriter, uh, come in, in the editing room just for talking with us, but we are the only spectator, we was the only spectator, David and I, of the, of the movie, David and I and Arthur Harari, of course.
David Thion: We spent, uh, 43 weeks in the editing room. Uh, so we have seen the film so many times, maybe 20 times.
Marie-Ange Luciani: Oh, more than, more than, more than 20 times.
David Thion: And at the very beginning, the film was three hours long. So, so we were really, uh, you know, involved, involved and, and deeply connected to the film too, every issue, and at a certain point we, we had the feeling that we, we, we got it. We, we got the final draft of the editing and we decided to show it to our financial partners. the French distributor, the sales agent, the broadcasters, and they all were you know, totally amazed, uh, by the film and it was, it was very long because it was a two hour and a half and we thought, okay, that won't be easy, uh, because with, you know, when the films are very long, they are really, you know, scary about how the audience will react for, for a two hour and a half film, and they, went out, uh, uh, the screening room and they said, wow, this is great.
Alex: What was the first time you actually watched the film, uh, with an audience of strangers? People not involved in the, the production of the film, financing the film. The first time you watched it with an audience, um, what was that experience like, where were you when that happened, when you first watched it with an audience?
Marie-Ange Luciani: It was in Cannes. It was the, it was the premier in Cannes and, and it was like, okay, now it's the big, big moment. You know, we choose with Thierry Fremaux to pass on Sunday afternoon because the film is long. And we was thinking that audience must be sleep well. Uh, not too tired. Not too tired, seeing nothing before us. So we was the first film, on the Sunday afternoon, his is a big plan and it was, it was crazy because the ovation was like 10 minutes standing ovation and we was like, okay, okay, we are not crazy. It's, it's a masterpiece maybe.
David Thion: Because the film, there were not so many pre sales, uh, before, the Cannes Film Festival and people were, beginning to fight to have the film. So it was true in, in the UK, in the US, in Italy, in Germany, in Spain.
Marie-Ange Luciani: Cannes was the beginning, the festival, Cannes was the beginning of everything. And, and, and, and you know, when you, when you are in Cannes, in competition, uh, uh, official competition, it's key to do. So it was amazing thing. Amazing thing for the market. Amazing thing for the audience. And at the end, amazing thing to win the Palme d'Or. It was crazy.
Alex: Tell me how that makes you feel as producers of this film on a, on a really, on an an emotional level. You've been on this journey, you've seen the script come together, you've been on set, you've been on this incredible journey, and when you get that standing ovation for 10 minutes, when you realize that the film that you've poured your energy into is getting that reception, how do you feel in that moment?
David Thion: It's a really strange experience because for me, I never, uh, you know, encountered before such, a deep, very, emotional moment. And, and it was really crazy during the film festival because we had a lot of feedback that were excellent, you know, from everywhere. Because most of the time when you are in Cannes or in Venice or in Berlin, know, it's very focused on the, on the two or three days around the film, and after that, people are mainly talking, of the film that went up, uh, yesterday or the day or the day after and that's it. And with Anatomy of a Fall people keep on talking
Marie-Ange Luciani: The thing is very crazy, I think, because I feel like me as a producer, this adventure, it's like a family life adventure because there is much love. So much love between all of us, not between, uh, Justine and I and and David. But between all the team, we was a team very close and all this adventure is like this, this is work, but this is love too. That's is a point, very particular, when you produce movies, it's not always like this, but with Justine she can do this. She can make family, she can involve everyone in the adventure. And we, and we, we run with her, and it's crazy, it's beautiful when like this because we want and we love to spend time with her. That's not always the truth when we, we, we put out a movie, sorry.
Alex: We're nearly out of time. I just have a few very quick questions to ask at the end of this interview. And it's been lovely talking to you. So first of all, what was your favourite day on the set of this film?
Marie-Ange Luciani: So we spent a lot of time on the set. But maybe it was the day of the fight scene. Every people, all the team, the state of the set was different. Uh, very intense, very special, the, um, the, le chef opérateur.
David Thion: The DOP?
Marie-Ange Luciani: Oui, the DOP was very, uh, in the proposition. It was technically very interesting to, to see this thing, and, and, uh, to, to see Sandra working, because she's is incredible to just to look at her working very concentrated. So I was thinking that, okay, we are doing a big thing now. It's a big movie.
David Thion: And at the end of the second day, you know, everyone in the crew knew that, this, uh, very scene would be extraordinary. Yeah,
Marie-Ange Luciani: After that, we eat a, big raclette in a restaurant, a lot of cheese and wine. And we were like, OK, OK.
Alex: Um, okay, next question. What's the toughest part of a producer's job?
Marie-Ange Luciani: I think in, in general, to be producer, it, the real thing iss to keep the relation between, uh, the, the filmmaker and the producer, the good relation to, to be connected. This is very hard because there is a lot of difficulty. There is a lot of uh, fears, uh, anxiety, fears, and we have to be connected always. We, we have to keep the trust between, uh, both of us, and in Anatomy, in particular, maybe the difficulty was not the financial part, it was easy, uh, the financial part, but maybe the preparation was very hard because Justine, at the beginning, said that, okay, this film is very different. It's very important. It's my most important movie, I think. So don't stop me on any subject. I need all I want. So we was like, okay, how much it cost? No, it was, it was very intense. The preparation, very, very, very intense.
David Thion: But the question of the relationship that you have with the director is really important because, uh, when you face, uh, some difficulties, if the, the, the director, uh, doesn't trust, you know, the producers, a hundred percent, it can be really, uh, difficult, you know, and sometimes there is, there are deep, uh, you know, fightings because of that. And, and, uh, with Justine, because we had, you know, the, she, she trusts us, uh, when, when we had some difficulties, the dialogue was, was always, going on in a very fluid way. So, so sometimes we, we disagree, but, but we were, you know, um, having discussions, you know, passionate discussions and, and we, we always find the, the right, decision to make, uh, and, um, yeah. But it was quite intense and very long.
Alex: Final question then, if, this is a potential, we're going to look ahead to a possible future. If you win on the night of the BAFTAs, who is the one person you each have to thank? Who may or may not have been involved in the film, but without who, you wouldn't be on that stage.
Marie-Ange Luciani: Oh, Justine Triet, the, director.
David Thion: And Arthur Harari for his, you know, collaboration on the script. These are the, But first Justine, of course.
Marie-Ange Luciani: She's a genius, I think.
Alex: Um, David, Marie-Ange, thank you for your time, and uh, once again, congratulations on the recognition that Anatomy of a Fall has received.
David Thion: yeah, thanks a lot. And sorry for the English, which is so so.
Marie-Ange Luciani: You can write subtitles, maybe.
Alex: My thanks to Marie-Ange Luciani and David Thion and to you for listening. Follow the podcast to explore the rest of the nominees and much more in the months to come. Thanks too to the producers of this series, Matt Hill and Ollie Peart at Rethink Audio with Sound design by Peregrine Pez Andrews. I'm Alex Zane. This was a BAFTA production. I'll see you again as the countdown to the EE BAFTA Film Awards 2024 continues.
